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maxreefer

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Hi,
I'd like to start a topic to talk about ARCHIVE usability.
IMOO the Backup feature is preatty useless for situation like mine where 90% of users download mails via POP3.
Conversely the Archive feature let me offer to my customers (also for those using pop3) a full backup of every mail passed through.
Here is the question: let's make an example

A client call me cause his pc has been formatted and he desperately need to recover his mails at least since 2 week back.
Actually what i do is to go to ADMIN webmail, to look into archive folder and to make a search for mails for that user.
Than i create a new folder and i copy all founded mails in there.
Later i got to my server and phisically move mails from admin to the correct user taking care of index files.

Of course you agree with me that this isn't a fast a practical way to recover messages.
But this is because Archive structure doesn't keep the original structure of domains and users. I think this would help me definitely as a option to automatically add archived mails to the original position.

What about?
Thanks
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maxfontana

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maxreefer wrote on Wed, 19 March 2008 15:34

Hi,
I'd like to start a topic to talk about ARCHIVE usability.
IMOO the Backup feature is preatty useless for situation like mine where 90% of users download mails via POP3.
[cut]
What about?
Thanks


Not the answer you'd like to hear but what about convincing your users to move from pop3 to imap or Mapi if they use Ms Outlook as mail client? I don't think I need to write down all the benefits they would get.
Just my 2 cents.
Max
Italy
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maxreefer

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MaxFontana wrote on Wed, 19 March 2008 15:46


Not the answer you'd like to hear but .....
Just my 2 cents.
Max
Italy



Yes of course I could do that but also consider 320 users x 1GB each plus backup and that I'm using KMS as a web mailserver not internal company mail server. So prefer to push my customers in using pop3 instead of Webmail and I always advise them that they have to take care about long term backup.

p.s.
ad ogni modo grazie Smile

Andrea

[Updated on: Wed, 19 March 2008 16:01]

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sedell

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Then educate your users about backing up mail. Not just long term, but short term as well. Users have to understand that on a POP3 server, once they download the mail, it's gone and doesn't exist on the server. If they crash and lose their mail, that includes the mail they downloaded an hour ago.

The archive isn't meant to be a replacement for poor backup strategies, or no backup at all. The mail server has a backup built in. If the mail isn't stored on the server, then the backup has to be done where the mail resides. Plus, you're not going to find all the mail for a user in the archive, so it's a poor replacement for a backup.

Scott
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maxreefer

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sedell wrote on Wed, 19 March 2008 16:18

...Plus, you're not going to find all the mail for a user in the archive, so it's a poor replacement for a backup.


Why do you say this?
Doesn't the archive store everything passes from my server in few words?
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Pavel Dobry (Kerio)

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maxreefer wrote on Wed, 19 March 2008 16:22

sedell wrote on Wed, 19 March 2008 16:18

...Plus, you're not going to find all the mail for a user in the archive, so it's a poor replacement for a backup.


Why do you say this?
Doesn't the archive store everything passes from my server in few words?


Yes, it does. But it is not designed to store information like where the email was delivered to. If some user forwards emails to another user, complete email mailbox for second user cannot be recovered from archive folders because the emails have original recipient. Archive folders have another purpose than recovering emails that are not stored on the server.
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sedell

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Yes, it stores everything, but in the case of BCC addressed messages, or mail with no To: address, you have nothing to search on to find the mail. No recipient information exists in the headers. The only exception is the X-Envelope-To header, which I don't believe is enabled by default, and I don't believe is searchable.

Scott
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maxreefer

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Kerio_pdobry wrote on Wed, 19 March 2008 17:00

maxreefer wrote on Wed, 19 March 2008 16:22

sedell wrote on Wed, 19 March 2008 16:18

...Plus, you're not going to find all the mail for a user in the archive, so it's a poor replacement for a backup.


Why do you say this?
Doesn't the archive store everything passes from my server in few words?


Yes, it does. But it is not designed to store information like where the email was delivered to. If some user forwards emails to another user, complete email mailbox for second user cannot be recovered from archive folders because the emails have original recipient. Archive folders have another purpose than recovering emails that are not stored on the server.


Ok,
the Archive stores evething but then in some cases it's almost impossible to find a particular message.
Here is my question?
Wouldn't be better to keep the original structure tree? For example for what should i use the archive as it is right now as I got a huge folder with like 44000 mails in (weekly rotation)?
Backup feature doesn't help me at all as you can understand and I can just go and teach each of my customers.
For example i got a similar problem with a so much asked feature that is to automatically delete mails older than n°days inside "Junk folder" cause otherwise customers using pop3 have to go to webmail to avoid the account storage overcome.
I can't force my customers and i can't teach all of them (like 100 companies/domain and 320 users)
I know and I agree that the Archive feature should be used for other purpose but maybe it can be usefull for othr situation.
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sedell

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If you make it useful for other situations, you risk breaking it's primary function, to archive mail. A number of us need that for compliance purposes. It's not meant to be a backup, or handy thing to pull mail out of, it's meant to be a record of every message that passed through the server.

Scott
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maxreefer

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sedell wrote on Wed, 19 March 2008 17:32

If you make it useful for other situations, you risk breaking it's primary function, to archive mail. A number of us need that for compliance purposes. It's not meant to be a backup, or handy thing to pull mail out of, it's meant to be a record of every message that passed through the server.


Yes,
but let me say that if you just need an archive to know if a specific mail has passed through the server and actually you don't need to recover it so why to archive the full messagge instead of just the header for example?
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sedell

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The headers don't contain the data within the message. You don't just need to know that a message passed through the server, the logs would accomplish that. You need to have a record of what passed through the server (conversations, data, files, etc.), which includes the full messages, intact and un-modified.

Scott
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maxreefer

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sedell wrote on Wed, 19 March 2008 18:30

The headers don't contain the data within the message. You don't just need to know that a message passed through the server, the logs would accomplish that. You need to have a record of what passed through the server (conversations, data, files, etc.), which includes the full messages, intact and un-modified.


Ok Scott,
i'm not gonna "fight" to impose my opinion cause you probably right about the purpose of Archive.
Ofcourse you can't avoid me to use this feature as I prefer.
So my final consideration is again:
Wouldn't be better to keep the original structure tree? (at least just a division beetwen users)
Also for people who need that for compliance purposes.
I personally think it would help to find messages anyway, no matter the reason the message is needed for.
here.
Wouldn't that help you useful debate.

regards

Andrea

[Updated on: Fri, 21 March 2008 15:41]

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teco

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I have set up an mailserver in the past for a customer with a similar request.

We had come to the solution that:

(1) Kerio need to have an option like "ignore or delay for ... days the delete request via POP3" for each account.

(2) You would need an second email server which catches all emails to a POP3 account and store them for a specified time.

We have used a second email server which has a auto-delete option for emails older as ... days. In the meantime the manufacturer of the second email server has been sold and the products has vanished from the marked...

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maxreefer

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I think that the whole question can be summarized like this:
How can I offer a shortperiod backup feature to my customers wich use POP3?
The daily integrated KMS backup could be ok if each users set their own POP3 client like "delete mails after at least 1 day" as I'm using daily backup.
But ofcourse I can't force them to take care about that, let's imagine if someone set a temporary outlook account and he forget to check that option for whatever reason.
Teco your solution is ok (I must admit I had already thought about this solution) but I'd prefer not to duplicate x times hundreds thousands of mails if I can avoid it... maybe i'm repetitive but the archive could just do this instead of having another mailserver and so on.
sedell

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But all of this doesn't take into consideration you won't see everything that needs to be backed up. Sent mail isn't stored in the user account folders, so deleting after x days won't help there. You don't see calendar, contacts, tasks, etc., at all, even in the archives, and they can be more important than their mail. If you are providing "backup" services for them, you're just giving them a false sense of security. If they use POP3, they still have a lot to lose if they don't back up properly and frequently on their own.

Scott
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