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rleslie70

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I'm just curious if anyone is running kerio with a thousand users or more on one server?

We have just under one thousand users and it seems lately we've been experiencing some performance issues. I've looked at the performance counters on the server and everything looks ok. The 2 things that have gotten slow are webmail and the user administration console (when you click on the users sometimes it takes between 5 and 10 minutes to load the user list...once the user list loads everything seems fine...the queries are relatively fast).

I've run defrags as well as enabled write caching. Didn't seem to help too much. I know if we had done raid 10 the performance might have been better, but i didn't want to cut my mail storage space in half. So what we got is a quad core server with 8 gigs of ram and 15 k rpm hard drives in a raid 5 configuration.

Any advice or things to look at (in the error logs for example)that might help me out, would be very appreciated.

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elias

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KMS is I/O bound, so you need more drives and you need to migrate to RAID 10. Also make sure you have a high-end RAID controller with lots of read/write cache. That's the only way to solve your performance problems.

You didn't mention if you're running Windows or Linux, but if you're running Windows, use Performance Monitor to monitor these counters:

Logical Disk -> % disk time
Logical Disk -> Average disk queue length

Watch these for the drive where your KMS store is located and you should see the I/O issue pretty clearly.

-Elias
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rleslie70

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we're running windows. i saw on the raid controller settings you can set a certain percentage to read vs write...which is more important? i had it 50/50 but changed it to 75% read and 25% write.
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rleslie70

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server we're using is a HP ProLiant DL585 G5. currently using the raid controller that came with it. drives are SAS.
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elias

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rleslie70 wrote on Mon, 24 August 2009 09:53
we're running windows. i saw on the raid controller settings you can set a certain percentage to read vs write...which is more important? i had it 50/50 but changed it to 75% read and 25% write.
If you have the BBWC, then you probably have the 512 MB cache option which is the best you can currently do. You're probably better off leaving the cache set to 50/50 unless you determine with performance monitor that adjusting it one way or the other will be beneficial. I seem to recall some time ago when I was tracking down my own KMS performance issues that I got a little better performance by biasing the cache for writes. But today with the right number of drives, I have mine set to 50/50.

You bought too much server and too few drives. With the number of users you have, I can't imaging you'll get the performance you want out of just 8 drives. To give you an idea, I have approximately 40 very heavy email users, and I have a single proc DL360 with 2 drives in RAID 1 for the OS, and 4 in RAID 10 for the KMS store and the performance is just right.

I don't know what you'll need to support your users, but based on my experience with KMS, I'd start somewhere between 10 and 16 drives dedicated to the store in RAID 10 to support your load.

If you can provide some numbers you get from the performance counters I suggested, we can probably get a better idea of what you'll ultimately need.

-Elias
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rleslie70

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logical disk % disk time seems ok...the few minutes i've been watching it, it hasn't gone past 8 percent..and that was just one spike. seems to be vacillate between .5 percent up to 4 percent. then average disk queue length is well under one percent...like .015.
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elias

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That seems impossibly low. Are you sure you're watching the drive that the Kerio mailstore is on?

-Elias
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rleslie70

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you were right..i had it set on all drives instead of the f drive where the store is. the average disk queue length is still really low. but the %disk time....i'm saw one spike up to 84 %..then it went back down to like 25 percent. but i guess there is nothing i can do to improve the performance except get a new server? I don't know that i've seen servers with up to 16 bays in them....what brand/model server which you suggest?
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elias

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What is the disk queue lenth you're seeing?

I have so few users and I don't use the built-in anti-spam or AV that I probably can't give you a good idea on what you'll need CPU-wise for your number of users. Maybe some of the other admins with large installations can help out with that.

As I mentioned, I'm currently using a DL360, but if I were to replace this server with a new one in the future, I'd probably buy a little quad-core DL320, and use the internal drives for the OS and then pick up either an MSA 50 or MSA 70 for just the mailstore. I'd hook it up via a P800 controller with 512 MB R/W cache.

If you do need more CPU, you can do exactly the same thing, but swap out the DL320 for a dual-proc DL360 or DL365.

-Elias


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altivec

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Right now i run KMS with over 200 users on:
- Xserver first generation (2 dual-core Xeon 5100)
- 8 Go RAM
- 2 SATA 1To in RAID1 Software!!!
- 50% are active users
- About 30 iPhone with PUSH activated

We have zero delay and over 600Go of mail right now.
Server also act as Content-Filter, Firewall, DHCP, DNS Server (10 domains), OD Master.

As said the server ain't the problem, the RAID is.
How our setup the CPU are barely running but drive are getting good use but we still have enought bandwidth left for expension.

Keep your server and just add external storage,

Have a look at SAN or External SAS RAID depending at what you are looking for the future.

Have a look at HP product or Promise.

With a good 16 disk RAID10 system u'll easily double up the IO Capacity.

If you still need more storage you could always go with RAID50, with 16 disk and RAID50 u'll still get a pretty good IO upgrade.

Don't touch RAID60 it's slower that RAID50 it's more security releated.

KMS1 6.7.2: Xserve 10.5.8 - 150 users
KMS2 6.7.2: Xserve 10.5.8 - 50 users
KMS3 6.7.2: Xserve 10.5.8 - 10 users/MX BackUp
KMS4 Beta: Xserve 10.5.8 - MX BackUp2
iPhone/WindowsMobile/Blackberry/Nokia

KWF Beta: HP DL380 on ESXi 4.0 - 60 users
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rleslie70

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thanks for everyone's replies. however, what about the sluggishness of the remote console when i click on the users....that is pulling from a cfg file on the c drive..but i guess the user data is still coming from the f drive because it's pulling the email information (quota info etc) from the f drive....
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Pavel Dobry (Kerio)

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rleslie70 wrote on Mon, 24 August 2009 23:45
thanks for everyone's replies. however, what about the sluggishness of the remote console when i click on the users....that is pulling from a cfg file on the c drive..but i guess the user data is still coming from the f drive because it's pulling the email information (quota info etc) from the f drive....


Administration Console is reading message counts and quota for all users, which means reading thousands of files. It could take a while.
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rleslie70

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another issue i have a little bit with is kerio's technical support. when i called in about a different issue, i also asked a little bit about kerio's sluggishness with so many users. I asked about Raid 10 versus Raid 5. I told him that i had read on the forums where raid 10 provided better performance. He gave me kind of a BS answer. he said that well...you would almost have to be some kind of raid expert to install a raid 10 and that raid 5 was fine. i found that to be a rather strange answer since i don't think installing raid 10 is that much different than installing raid 5.
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rleslie70

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there isn't any way to speed up the admin console at all?
altivec

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Yes RAID 5 are good.

We never said RAID5 were crap but RAID10 is still faster.

In your case whatever RAID u'll go with 8 drive if you have near 1000 users with KOC or other syncing method your are sure don't have enought IO on the server either on HD or Network adapter are saturated.

For the query of the user list your server have to look at all mails folder and see how big the folder is so it's accessing the mail folder on your F drive.

Edit:

Something important i didn't tought to ask....

When you are saying the admin console is slow is that by remote access or directly from the server ?

KMS1 6.7.2: Xserve 10.5.8 - 150 users
KMS2 6.7.2: Xserve 10.5.8 - 50 users
KMS3 6.7.2: Xserve 10.5.8 - 10 users/MX BackUp
KMS4 Beta: Xserve 10.5.8 - MX BackUp2
iPhone/WindowsMobile/Blackberry/Nokia

KWF Beta: HP DL380 on ESXi 4.0 - 60 users
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