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Home » Kerio User Forums » Kerio Connect » Slow Kerio 6.7.1 mailserver (Server 2008 x86, 3TB RAID5 ARRAY, 4GB RAM, Outlook 2007 SP2...)
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peter_b123@yahoo.com

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I'm going to try and describe my scenario to see if this helps in the resolution... As short and sweet as I can make it so I don't lose interest... Smile

10 Users. KMS 6.7.1. Moved from Exchange 2003 SP2.

1. Converted to KMS from Exchange 2003 SP2. Exchange 2003 SP2 passed all health tests. Defragged IS before convert with KMS tool. KMS tool found a good deal of damaged messages with one user in particular, a few damaged/unconvertable messages/items with others. Conversion SEEMED successful aside from that. Items that were not converted were rather old and I did not pursue them. PST was kept, old mailserver is still usable if need be for recovery.

2. Switching from Inbox to Calendar is PAINFULLY SLOW. These are not low end PCs that I've got Vista x86 SP1, Office SBE 2007 SP2, 4GB, fast SATA drives, AMD Athlon X2 6000 CPUs. Outlook/Exchange beat the STUFFING out of Kerio when I had it up in terms of performance. There's no comparison. Exchange kicked butt. Kerio is slower than snot.

3. Enter new server. Dell PE T610. Xeon 5502. 8GB RAM. Win Svr 2008 Std x86. Dell Perc 6i w/4 750GB SATA (Dell branded, came with the server) HDDs. RAID 5. Runs like a raped ape. Kerio Adminkit is still quick and responsive.

4. Even when using the Webmail client, switching from Inbox to Calendar on the users with tons of items is PAINFULLY slow. It's not just Outlook. It's Kerio. It's not just KOC.

I would not be surprised that there's an issue with Server 2008 x86 and KMS. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some naughty program interaction somewhere. Whatever it is I don't care and should not be given some ridiculous response about it being a PC issue or the speed of my RAID array. That's a cop-out.

I'll do what I can, get you guys logs and what not but this is ridiculous. I have wasted the index files shut off mailserver renamed index.fld to index.bad and observed the exact same slowdown when switching from Inbox to Calendar to Tasks (et cetera) within the WEBMAIL.

What is happening here? Anyone have a clue? My customers won't be renewing if this isn't fixed...! (And I won't be reselling this anymore!!!!)
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anthony.somerset

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few questions

how big are your users calendars? do you have a lot of historical data (ie goes back more than 2 years or even as low as a year for particularly busy calendars)

KMS is not so hard on ram or CPU as it is disk access speed. if you have 4 disks or more i still always recommend raid 10 over raid 5 purely because of the performance.

does this issue happen for one particular user or for everyone, is there a user that doesnt have this problem? whats the difference between them?

do you have mac clients and do they have this issue as well?

how have you set up clients (KOC i assume)

are you able to test KMS server running on an XP box or win server 2003

also note, windows cannot address more than approx 3.5GB ram in x86 mode, you NEED to get the x64 version of server to make use of the extra 4-5GB RAM

Mac Xserve Intel - 2x 2.7GHz Dual Core Xeon
Leopard 10.5.8
4GB Ram
1.25 TB HDD Raid 5
Kerio 6.7.1
~60 Users (varying windows and mac Exchange or IMAP)
18 iPhones
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peter_b123@yahoo.com

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My comments >>

Re: Slow Kerio 6.7.1 mailserver Sat, 12 September 2009 08:02
anthony.somerset
few questions

how big are your users calendars? do you have a lot of historical data (ie goes back more than 2 years or even as low as a year for particularly busy calendars)

>> Some of these calendars span 10 years front and back. I don't have an answer currently on the actual amount of items in the busy calendars. I could find out, but I'd have to respond back later. The problem users have 2-3GB of mail items (mail, calendar, tasks, etc..)


KMS is not so hard on ram or CPU as it is disk access speed. if you have 4 disks or more i still always recommend raid 10 over raid 5 purely because of the performance.


>> Got it - but like I posted originally it seems like the problem is not with the server as much as it is with Kerio's programming if it is that demanding. This server is very quick. It's caching, has a battery backup, and boots Svr 2008 x64 like a champ. This RAID 5 array suffers a little from write performance (write-back caching enabled), it does not suffer poor read performance.


does this issue happen for one particular user or for everyone, is there a user that doesnt have this problem? whats the difference between them?


>> I'd say the problem children are the three with 2+ GB mailboxes. When I say mailboxes that doesn't mean 2GB in their inbox, of course, but 2+ GB of mail/calendar/tasks... I'd have to graph it out to get more specific. Also, to reiterate, the problems with speed ALSO occur within Webmail.


do you have mac clients and do they have this issue as well?


>> Nope, no Mac clients. Do Iphones count? Smile

how have you set up clients (KOC i assume)

>> Yes, per advice of Kerio staff they're all KOC (they gotta think of another acronym) 6.7.1 I believe.


are you able to test KMS server running on an XP box or win server 2003


>> No, but I have KMS installed on my home office server which is also running Svr 2008 (Enterprise Ed.). I came from Visnetic/Icewarp server - had some issues with transferring folders with funky characters in the IMAP boxes. But the point is that it is also running poorly - it should be quicker than it is. Not as bad as my client's system, but still slower than it should be.


also note, windows cannot address more than approx 3.5GB ram in x86 mode, you NEED to get the x64 version of server to make use of the extra 4-5GB RAM


>> Understood. I'm hip, and know this. Not sure why this was mentioned? But anyhow you can understand I hope where I'm coming from. Kerio wasn't interested in remoting into the server or checking out logs, and I'm wondering why and my users are not pleased. I would not call what I did based on Kerio's performance a solution of any prideful measure - it's not working for me. Thanks for your reply.


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peter_b123@yahoo.com

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An update - I'm seeing this in the error logs... Quite a few of them... Where is this coming from? What process/user/service is being denied access?

[11/Sep/2009 11:21:02] FolderStatusCache.cpp: Cannot rename file E:\Program Files\Kerio\MailServer\store/mail/THEDOMAIN/THEUSER/Tasks/st atus.fld.new to E:\Program Files\Kerio\MailServer\store/mail/THEDOMAIN/THEUSER/Tasks/st atus.fld when saving folder status: (5) Access is denied.

Any help?
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anthony.somerset

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ok

i would expect that if calendars span 10 years back that could be the problem, its not so much the physical size of the calendars but just could be the sheer number of files, now i dont know if this is a kerio issue or windows or just a filesystem issue and i dont now how to suggest a solution other than archiving some of it

i have the mac server and some of our users have 4-5GB+ overall we dont have any problems and we do run on raid 5 (however because with only a 3 drive limit we have no choice Wink ) so i would like to say its not a kerio issue because of that, but it could be there windows side causing issues, if you can, can i suggest testing by running Linux in a VM program (VirtualBox is solid and free if you just want to test)

iphones are a client in themselves, do they have the same issue?

i am just wondering if win server 2008 is interacting wierdly with kerio causing the issues

i mentioned the ram limit because you originally said x86 as your OS so your further post correct me Smile

that said i do suspect that the sheer number of files in your calendars folder(not the size) is the issue i cant confirm that for definate, but thats my gut feel, wish i could be me more helpful but i am not a kerio developer just going from what i know

to follow your next post up, i would suspect that its a file permissions issue, make sure Kerio runs in the admin group and that the kerio mailstore has full access from the admin group

Mac Xserve Intel - 2x 2.7GHz Dual Core Xeon
Leopard 10.5.8
4GB Ram
1.25 TB HDD Raid 5
Kerio 6.7.1
~60 Users (varying windows and mac Exchange or IMAP)
18 iPhones
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peter_b123@yahoo.com

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My comments >>
Re: Slow Kerio 6.7.1 mailserver Sun, 13 September 2009 00:13
anthony.somerset


ok

i would expect that if calendars span 10 years back that could be the problem, its not so much the physical size of the calendars but just could be the sheer number of files, now i dont know if this is a kerio issue or windows or just a filesystem issue and i dont now how to suggest a solution other than archiving some of it

>> Strange to think that it could be a problem as it wasn't considering the system (server) it came from though, the previous server was el-cheapo RAID 1 card w/2 200GB PATA drives, 2GB RAM, SBS 2003, overloaded with AV SW that really was piggy. The new server is 4 times as powerful, easily, than the old one. I'm thinking it's a Kerio problem.

i have the mac server and some of our users have 4-5GB+ overall we dont have any problems and we do run on raid 5 (however because with only a 3 drive limit we have no choice ) so i would like to say its not a kerio issue because of that, but it could be there windows side causing issues, if you can, can i suggest testing by running Linux in a VM program (VirtualBox is solid and free if you just want to test)

>> The more I hear about Mac users and servers the more I'm wondering the burning question: Did you convert from Exchange to the Kerio install? I can run Virtualbox of course but it's not just a matter of running Virtualbox, it's also installing the server OS, it's re-converting the Exchange IS, setting up users, testing, etc... That's about 20 billable hours thrown away. Thanks but no thanks.... Smile

iphones are a client in themselves, do they have the same issue?

>> Yes, they work fine, and no they don't have the same issue as they're using 3-7 days of cached data on their phones. It's not even related. When they sync, it's slower than it should be, but they're very usable.

i am just wondering if win server 2008 is interacting wierdly with kerio causing the issues

>> That's my question - I've got this niggling concern that there is something with Kerio that is not ready for prime time. Windows Server 2008 is mature and working all over the place. I'm thinking I made a big mistake getting these guys switched over to Kerio. The features and pretty web mail were a strong selling point as was the "unlimited" email lure - but now I'm kicking myself (and losing money!!!!)

i mentioned the ram limit because you originally said x86 as your OS so your further post correct me

>> I didn't mean to be snippy, but I was aware of that.

that said i do suspect that the sheer number of files in your calendars folder(not the size) is the issue i cant confirm that for definate, but thats my gut feel, wish i could be me more helpful but i am not a kerio developer just going from what i know

>> I do appreciate the help - I wonder if anyone from Kerio reads these...!

to follow your next post up, i would suspect that its a file permissions issue, make sure Kerio runs in the admin group and that the kerio mailstore has full access from the admin group

>> That's my other current burning question - but WHAT doesn't have access? WHAT doesn't have rights? The KMS is running as "Local System" which has no issues as far as file access. Nothing is denied to Local System - so I'm questioning the error messages and wonder what the heck is up... Backup is working correctly, Admin has full rights to the files as does Local System...???? Was there a problem with the export from Exchange??? Why does KMS even work at all if there is a permissions issue???
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ccjwells

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>> I do appreciate the help - I wonder if anyone from Kerio reads these...!

I just want to point out, that while Kerio devs and support staff do read the forum, this is not the official support channel. If you haven't already, go to support.kerio.com and submit a trouble ticket.

It seems like the performance issues you're seeing are more to do with the sheer number of items in folders than anything else. I would check the mailboxes where the users are having problems and see how their mail is organized. if they have 2-3GBs of mail in one folder, you will see a performance hit (disclaimer: I'm not a Kerio support guy, just going by personal experience and things I've read in the forums)

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jcox

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If you want my personal experience. Stick with Exchange. Kerio has terrible performance issues, it is not as supported as other products. They use non standard IMAP and LDAP programming so 3rd party applications don't work as well. The Kerio Outlook connector is a pain in the ass and doesn't always update. You never have to update that crap when you use exchange, it just works! Searches using KOC are slow and often cause outlook to hang on mailboxes over 200MB, that's pathetic! You can't have a true redundant server setup with Kerio, the distributed domain doesn't work with public contacts, calendar's, etc. So it's pointless! There is just as much corruption and need for defragging/mailbox fixes in Kerio as there are in Exchange. Exchange's database setup, especially 2010, is way better! We constantly have calendar issues. Every time there is an upgrade, calendar's are off, we get duplicates of everything and people are always complaining. Support for various cellphones often do not work because of Kerio's bad programming or lack of it. Motorola for example, doesn't work at all, AGAIN with the latest release of Kerio. Cellphone users get their email but its in a the header format so its useless! A simple hello shows 30 lines of text and programming code. When you rely on a messaging system to tell your Doctors important information, you expect it to work better. It doesn't. Our server crashes several times a week. After this latest update, it now crashes a couple times a day and we have to reboot. When it comes to larger mailboxes, you're in trouble. Kerio needs 2 to 3x as many hardrives as a similarly sized Exchange datastore because of how it uses a flat file storage system. The IOPs requirements are signficantly more and you really need no less than 15k spindles, flash drives if you can afford it. We actually started using MailStore archive server to remove all the mail from Kerio that is more than 3 months old so users can still access emails and actually do searches that work. Has greatly helped keep kerio running, which is sad and pathetic. We have a test Exchange 2010 running now from a hosted solution and it's been much more accepted by our users that we're looking to do a full implementation, regardless that it costs more.

Good luck! And if you're a reseller, I would stick with what is generally supported or you will look like the crappy support guy when things dont work as well as exchange does for something simple like a cell phone email client.
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peter_b123@yahoo.com

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I hear you and feel the same pain.

Perhaps there should be an ex-Kerio Connect support group somewhere.

I do applaud Kerio's efforts, but it seems that the program only works on the machines it's designed for, Macs.

They have some innovative and simple ideas which I also applaud, but they're simply out of their league when it comes to small business mail servers. If I had to do it over again I'd defenitely go with MDaemon.

In any case, I've moved my worst (and soon all of them) to Office 365 P1 for $6/mailbox. Aside from the frustration on resetting passwords, creating the proper CSV files for user imports (and different from mail migration), it's been so much better and my users are much happier.

There's no reason any mail server should perform as poorly as Kerio has for me. I will not miss it.

cheers!
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