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skeates

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Feature Request[ 4 votes ]
1.Yes this is a good idea 1 / 25%
2.No this is a bad idea 3 / 75%
3.There is no point I don't use Apple mail 0 / 0%

I will be submitting this as a feature request as well, but wanted to get peoples opinions on it as well.

The biggest problem with Apple mail and Kerio is that Apple mail uses it's own folder structure:

Sent Items = Sent Messages
Deleted Items = Deleted Messages.

These can be remapped to the correct folders, but if Apple mail looses connection to the server and you start sending e-mail it then reverts it's self back to it's defaults. This then causes a user to report that all their sent items have disappeared. This is usually not such a big issue, but if Kerio hiccups and say an office of a 100 people then loose connection to Kerio you then have a 100 people coming up to you to sort out the problem.

Unfortunately the mapping of these folders can not be managed WGM preferences files and best I have come up with is a script that launches Apple mail and writes the correct settings to the apple mail plist file (this does not stop the issue from happening only helps you re-map the folders).

So I had an idea this morning what if I create a symlink to to Sent Items called Sent Messages and the same for Deleted Items. This way if apple mail remapped it's self it would actually still be pointing back to the correct folder.

Now I could go do this manually and that would probably be doable with a script, but you would have to do it each time you created a new user which is just a hassle. So my though / feature request would be to put an option in Kerio to enable apple mail support either per user or per domain. This option would then automatically create the symlinks for all users.

Any comments on this would be great full so I can submit it as a feature request to Kerio.

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marook

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How is Kerio supposed to run a script to make symlinks on the klient??
There is no setup-tool for Apple Mail, and I would hate to see one added.

It would be much better if Kerio suported the IMAP extension to tell the client what folders have special functions;
IMAP LIST Extension for Special-Use Mailboxes

Regards,

Jakob Peterhänsel
Consultant - Humac A/S

Apple Certified Support Professional (ACSP)
Apple Certified Technical Coordinator (ACTC)
AppleSeed/CQF member since 1998
Kerio Messaging Partner
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Pavel Dobry (Kerio)

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Well, IMAP server in Kerio already supports XLIST command, which has the same purpose. It was developed by Google and Apple.

Anyway, using symlinks in the message store is very bad idea and it will end with data corruption. Don't do this.
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marook

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If Kerio support XLIST and it's developed by Apple and Google, why is Mail then not using it when we set up a new IMAP account towards Kerio???? Wink

Does Mail not support Apple's own protocol?

Regards,

Jakob Peterhänsel
Consultant - Humac A/S

Apple Certified Support Professional (ACSP)
Apple Certified Technical Coordinator (ACTC)
AppleSeed/CQF member since 1998
Kerio Messaging Partner
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Pavel Dobry (Kerio)

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Excellent question. You need to ask Apple.
AFAIK they use it only in iPhone client and only for Gmail account. Anyway, Thuderbird 3.0 client does use it as well for all IMAP accounts.
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GlennK

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Just switched to using PostBox here (based on Thunderbird) and it finds the special folders on setup and holds them well. I don't know why Apple Mail has to be such a problem child.
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skeates

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Well thanks for the reply's. So the consensus so far is that this is a bad idea.

I'm still going to try it out on a controlled group of people and see what results I get.

It just does not hold it's mappings what ever you do. Thunder bird work Entourage works, Apple mail just does not. It's annoying and a solution of some sort needs to be found so any ideas on what type of a solution should be suggested is welcome.

My main objective is to gather enough support behind this to push it onto Kerio. I don't think going to Apple and saying your mail client is broken is going to make them do any thing especially since they have a new OS on the way out. If they did fix it, it would only apply to new versions of apple mail and won't apply to previous versions.

I'm sure it's something Kerio could facilitate with minimal work that would solve a lot off hassles.
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Pavel Dobry (Kerio)

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BTW: Have you tried to use Exchange IMAP account in Apple Mail? It does map the folders correctly and works with Kerio.
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skeates

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Kerio_pdobry wrote on Mon, 16 May 2011 17:31
BTW: Have you tried to use Exchange IMAP account in Apple Mail? It does map the folders correctly and works with Kerio.


I'm afraid it does not. I moved one of my larger clients from imap over a year ago to imap-exchange to see if it would improve. Same issue exists.
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marook

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The only 'solution' to this I can think of: bugreport.apple.com !

And if enough people do it, or the bug report is clear, solid and to the point, Apple does listen.

I have to admit I think I have seen this issue, but I'm not sure. What I see, is Apple Mail not using XLIST/Special-Use extensions of IMAP, so initial account setup is a mess.
On top of that, there is no way to use MCX settings from Open Directory to map the folder names automatically even though the 'Exchange IMAP' account defaults have those settings in the pref file - normal IMAP accounts does not follow any such preferences... Go figure!

Push Apple, make some qualified 'noise' and they might see the light.. Smile

Update:
This might need to be filed as two bugs;
A: Mail is not using XLIST/Special-Use IMAP extensions

B: Mail dismiss the User-specified IMAP folders for special-use folders, if IMAP connection is broken.. (?)

[Updated on: Mon, 16 May 2011 18:12]


Regards,

Jakob Peterhänsel
Consultant - Humac A/S

Apple Certified Support Professional (ACSP)
Apple Certified Technical Coordinator (ACTC)
AppleSeed/CQF member since 1998
Kerio Messaging Partner
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marook

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Kerio_pdobry wrote on Mon, 16 May 2011 10:43
Excellent question. You need to ask Apple.
AFAIK they use it only in iPhone client and only for Gmail account. Anyway, Thuderbird 3.0 client does use it as well for all IMAP accounts.


I just tested this on iOS 4.3.3 (iPad) against KC 7.1.4 and the iOS does not automatically select Sent Items, Deleted Items...
Actually, I had to open Mail on the iPad and browse the Drafts folder in order for it to auto-select that as the Drafts folder - otherwise it defaulted to using local folders for all special-use folders... Sad

Regards,

Jakob Peterhänsel
Consultant - Humac A/S

Apple Certified Support Professional (ACSP)
Apple Certified Technical Coordinator (ACTC)
AppleSeed/CQF member since 1998
Kerio Messaging Partner
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marook

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Submitted a bugreport to Apple (Radar ID: 9444710)

Feel free to add your own wording - here is mine:


Summary:
When setting up a new IMAP account in Mail, the XLIST extensions in IMAP does not seem to be followed.
Mail creates the default Apple-supplied folder names (XX Messages) and don't use the server-provided foldernames (XX Items)

Steps to Reproduce:
1: Setup a new IMAP account (in our environment Kerion Connect 7.1 is used)
2: Notice the 'dubplicate' special-use folders in the Folder list.

Expected Results:
As the IMAP extension XLIST is developed by Apple and Google, it's very sad to see Apple's own product is not using these techniques to ease the use for the user. Connecting an iOS device to the server seems to be much more smooth.. :-/ WHY?

Actual Results:
Mail creates the default foldernames ending in 'Messages' for all special-use folders, making a wrong location of messages from this device.
The result is a very confused USER that does not have Sent, Deleted and Drafts in sync across devices.. Sad

Regression:
- I'm being told XLIST is used when the account is a Google account.. !?!
- If the user manually select the special-use folders, they might 'snap-back' to the Apple defaults if the IMAP connection is broken.. but that might be another bugreport worthy..
- Mail uses the right foldernaming if the account type is Exchange IMAP...

Notes:

Regards,

Jakob Peterhänsel
Consultant - Humac A/S

Apple Certified Support Professional (ACSP)
Apple Certified Technical Coordinator (ACTC)
AppleSeed/CQF member since 1998
Kerio Messaging Partner
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marook

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FIles a bug agains this as well - please file your own, here is my wording:

Mail.app: Custom user-set Special-Use folders does not stick.
----
Summary:
If a user has specified special-use folders (menu: Mailbox-> Use this mailbox for...) and loose the IMAP connection or the IMAP server is slow in responding on a request, Mail.app sometimes reset the folders used for Sent, Deleted, Junk & Drafts to the Apple default folders (ending in ...Messages).

Steps to Reproduce:
1: Setup an IMAP account
2: Specify the correct folders to use (normally ending in ...Items)
3: Use Mail.app on a slow connection, or agains a busy IMAP server..
4: Be frustrated about your Sent folder suddenly have no items, or missing a lot...

Expected Results:
Mail.app to obey what folders the user have specified!

Actual Results:
Mail.app seems to be confused, and return to the folder-names used by a default (Apple) account.

Regression:
The user ends up being scared of having lost a lot of mails.
The users mail is out of sync on devices, as iOS and other email clients does not suddently swap back to other folders on connection problems.
Use IMAP extensions XLIST and/or SPECIAL-USE to be sure, and Stop swapping around when told to do otherwise.. Please!

Notes:

Regards,

Jakob Peterhänsel
Consultant - Humac A/S

Apple Certified Support Professional (ACSP)
Apple Certified Technical Coordinator (ACTC)
AppleSeed/CQF member since 1998
Kerio Messaging Partner
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emilh

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OK. I just made a similar submission to Apple.
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marook

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That was quick..
--------------
From: Apple Developer Bug Reporting
Re: Bug ID 9444710: Mail.app does not use XLIST IMAP extensions = wrong folders used locally

.... After further investigation it has been determined that this is a known issue, which is currently being investigated by engineering....

Thank you for submitting this bug report. We truly appreciate your assistance in helping us discover and isolate bugs.
----------------

But the more people that file it, the more attention it gets... Wink

Regards,

Jakob Peterhänsel
Consultant - Humac A/S

Apple Certified Support Professional (ACSP)
Apple Certified Technical Coordinator (ACTC)
AppleSeed/CQF member since 1998
Kerio Messaging Partner
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