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mrossi

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I have one user who has exceeded their quota a few times after typing/sending an email. The email appears to be sent and then they get the user quota has been exceeded message. The user goes to see the email just sent and it is no when to be found. There used to be a conflict folder and the emails would go there if there was n issue like this (if I recall correctly). The user is then erases some emails to get some space and never sees the email sent that put them over the edge ever again.

We are using Kerio Connect 8.5.3 and KOC with Outlook.

Where does the email go? Is it sent? Why not stop the email form going anywhere and warn the user first?
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mrossi

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Found this in Admin console, Errors:

[05/Feb/2016 13:16:15] dav_helper.cpp: User tortorice@ces-1.com couldn't create new message in ~tortorice<_at_>ces-1.com/Sent Items - a storage limit reached!
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Think Fixed

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I would say that the log is telling you what happened. The message cannot be stored in sent items because the storage limit has been reached. You could check the Mail log to confirm this, but the message is likely not being sent. The logical solution to this problem is for this user to eliminate some of their old emails either by archiving, or just deleting what they don't need. You could also increase the quota, but that won't teach them to be responsible with their email.

Howie Isaacks
Systems Engineer | Apple Solutions Consultant
Think Fixed LLC, Dallas and Fort Worth

www.thinkfixed.com
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Bud Durland

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Let's keep in mind also that having a copy of sent messages in the 'sent items' folder is a client side function. It is not part the server's send message (SMTP) process. When you send a message from Outlook, Thunderbird, EMclient or the Kerio client, the client first hands the message to the server (SMTP), then the client simply makes a copy of the message in the 'Sent Items' folder This is when it bumps into the quota limit.
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Think Fixed

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Bud Durland wrote on Sat, 06 February 2016 20:34
Let's keep in mind also that having a copy of sent messages in the 'sent items' folder is a client side function. It is not part the server's send message (SMTP) process. When you send a message from Outlook, Thunderbird, EMclient or the Kerio client, the client first hands the message to the server (SMTP), then the client simply makes a copy of the message in the 'Sent Items' folder This is when it bumps into the quota limit.


Right. Some end user education is in order. I have several users who think the solution is to just bump up their quota, but that defeats the whole purpose of having a quota.

Howie Isaacks
Systems Engineer | Apple Solutions Consultant
Think Fixed LLC, Dallas and Fort Worth

www.thinkfixed.com
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mrossi

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@ Think Fixed
I get that they can delete email but the condition of an email being sent/not sent is an issue with Kerio. Which is it? did it send or not? The very obvious solutions are to delete email or up the quota, neither help with the immediate question of the email being sent or not. Maybe the quota should be checked PRIOR to sending the email so that the user can delete email and then send. The user and me will not be left not knowing what happens to the email.

So what happens to it? Anyone from Kerio? is this being fixed?
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Bud Durland

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mrossi wrote on Mon, 08 February 2016 08:37
@ Think Fixed
... but the condition of an email being sent/not sent is an issue with Kerio.


No, it is not. The presence of a message in the 'Sent Items' folder is not proof that a message was sent. It is a historic artifact that the SMTP process between your client and the mail server probably did not have an error, and is placed there by the CLIENT, not the server. Even when a copy of the sent message is successfully placed in that folder, it certainly is not an indicator that the mail server was successful in delivering the mail to the destination.

Indeed, all the e-mail clients I've worked with in recent memory have placing a copy of an outgoing message in the 'sent items' folder as an option, albeit it is usually enabled by default.

mrossi (cont)
Which is it? did it send or not? The very obvious solutions are to delete email or up the quota, neither help with the immediate question of the email being sent or not. Maybe the quota should be checked PRIOR to sending the email so that the user can delete email and then send. The user and me will not be left not knowing what happens to the email.


Kerio can send a message to users when they begin to approach their quota, usually long before there is an issue with the client not being able to save copies of messages in the 'Sent Items' folder. Further, administrators can help by setting limits on when messages are purged by the server from 'Deleted Items' and 'Junk E-Mail' folders, both of which can become black holes for space.

Indeed, all the e-mail clients I've worked with in recent memory have placing a copy of an outgoing message in the 'sent items' folder as an option, albeit usually enabled by default.

A copy of the message not landing the 'Sent Items' will not prevent the message from being delivered. The administrator can always look at the mail log to see if the message was delivered.
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mrossi

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It is Kerio in the sense that the system is Kerio and what happens to the email is Kerio. The storing of the email in sent items (or somewhere) is important - the user needs to send the email again to make sure it went. Sometimes they have typed for 10-15 minutes and then lost it ??

Where did the email go is the real issue here ??

If I remember correctly there was a conflicts folder that would take messages when there was an issue. This gave you the opportunity to retrieve it after dealing with the issue, and send it.

If I recall correctly, Exchange does not let you send an email if you are over your quota (if set to do so). So it checked prior to sending the email. And it has options for receiving email despite the quota. Something I think is needed. We do not want to get client emails sent back. But to keep the user in check with restrict the sending until they delete emails.
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Think Fixed

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mrossi wrote on Mon, 08 February 2016 08:31
It is Kerio in the sense that the system is Kerio and what happens to the email is Kerio. The storing of the email in sent items (or somewhere) is important - the user needs to send the email again to make sure it went. Sometimes they have typed for 10-15 minutes and then lost it ??

Where did the email go is the real issue here ??

If I remember correctly there was a conflicts folder that would take messages when there was an issue. This gave you the opportunity to retrieve it after dealing with the issue, and send it.

If I recall correctly, Exchange does not let you send an email if you are over your quota (if set to do so). So it checked prior to sending the email. And it has options for receiving email despite the quota. Something I think is needed. We do not want to get client emails sent back. But to keep the user in check with restrict the sending until they delete emails.


The only thing that's really important here is that you have a user who has hit their quota. Fix that first before worrying about where the email went. If users are being irresponsible, let this serve as a lesson that they need to start being responsible. I refuse to coddle people who won't take responsibility for their own actions. I don't have the time for that. The message did not send. Why? Because they were over their quota. It doesn't matter if the message made it into the sent items or not. What matters is that they went over the quota. If you check the mail server log it will tell you if the message went out.

Howie Isaacks
Systems Engineer | Apple Solutions Consultant
Think Fixed LLC, Dallas and Fort Worth

www.thinkfixed.com
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UnifiedTechs-Brian

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[quote title=Think Fixed wrote on Mon, 08 February 2016 10:42]mrossi wrote on Mon, 08 February 2016 08:31
It is Kerio in the sense that the system is Kerio and what happens to the email is Kerio.

Imagine you give your employees buckets to hold water leaking from the ceiling, one employee never bothers to empty his bucket and eventually it overflows and the floor gets wet anyways.. Do you blame the bucket?

Time to make a management decision, either increase the quota or tell the employee they need to maintain their mailbox.

If you want to know if the email was sent just check the logs...

[Updated on: Mon, 08 February 2016 17:10]


- Brian
Kerio Preferred Partner, Reseller & Hosting Provider
Unified Technology Solutions
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mrossi

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Please stop responding to this post if you have no solutions or answers.

This is an important issue. People reach there quota at times due to no doing of their own - like receive a few very large email attachments. So this issue should be addressed.

I do not have the luxury of "fixing" if a person goes up to their quota. I am not a dictator nor am I the boss of all users in my company. This time it happens to be a owner of my company so there is only so much I can do and say.

It matters where the email went so they can easily send it again after they delete some items. And in this scenario I am not getting a phone call. They can handle the issue themselves.

Does anyone else have anything to add? Does Kerio have any solutions to this? Is there still a conflicts folder?
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Brian Carmichael (Kerio)

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If the message failed to send, it would go into a local "outbox" folder and the user would receive some type of error message. Most likely the message was sent, and as previously mentioned you can confirm this in the mail log.

Brian Carmichael
Senior Technical Marketing Engineer | Kerio
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Bud Durland

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mrossi wrote on Mon, 08 February 2016 11:19
This is an important issue. People reach there quota at times due to no doing of their own - like receive a few very large email attachments. So this issue should be addressed.
<snip>
It matters where the email went so they can easily send it again after they delete some items. And in this scenario I am not getting a phone call. They can handle the issue themselves.


An important point is being missed (or mis-communicated) here. The presence or absence of a copy of an outgoing message in the 'Sent Items' folder has absolutely no bearing on whether the message was sent. In most cases, the message will have successfully been delivered to the mail server, and then from there to the intended destination. It is simply the convenience copy of the message in 'Sent Items' that's missing.

Some clients (Thunderbird, emClient) are more flexible than OutLook, and provide the option of making the 'Sent Items' copy in a local folder rather than a server-side folder. This would solve your problem.

All that said, it would be cool if the Kerio Offline connector popped up a warning to users that are with 90%(+/-) of their quota. Worthy of a feature request, I think. (EDIT: I just looked, such a request is already outstanding. I added some votes to it)


[Updated on: Mon, 08 February 2016 19:56]

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mrossi

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Thanks for responding.

According to the user, the email was not stored anywhere after it was sent and then the exceeded quota message appeared. I asked again today to make sure of what folders they checked. The user stated they have had this happen more than once and the email was not stored in the outbox any of the times. They checked that box as well as the sent items.

Does it matter if the user is using the offline connector? That is what we mainly use.

Thanks.
Bud Durland

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mrossi wrote on Mon, 08 February 2016 13:55
According to the user, the email was not stored anywhere after it was sent and then the exceeded quota message appeared.


That would be the expected behavior, since the server never stores the copy, it is a client operation. The user needs to check with the recipient to see if they got the mail, or have the Kerio Administrator check the server logs for delivery records. I fully expect that the message was indeed delivered as intended (unless the user was sending the message to themselves).

If this user is up against their quota, then incoming mail will not be delivered -- it sits in the Kerio queue for a while, waiting for resolution to the quota issue, either housekeeping or a quota bump. The wait is the same as the SMTP delivery parameters, I think, which is probably a couple days.


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